The Devil’s In The Details (Part II)
Jon Cooksey and Ali Matheson Discuss The Collector

By Robert Falconer, HNR Senior Editor

In the second half of our two-part special interview with creators/executive producers Jon Cooksey and Ali Matheson, we delve further into the mysteries and evolution of the Canadian series, The Collector, and talk a little about the state of dramatic television here in Canada.

Robert: How did the inspiration for The Collector came about?

Jon: Well, back in early 2001—when we first realized we’d reached the stage where anybody would really care what we thought a show should be—we were coming up with series ideas in general. We’d pitched series before, but hadn’t really gotten credits. And we’d been so involved with So Weird that there hadn’t really been time to do anything else.

The concept for The Collector goes back to the Kali Uga. Essentially it deals with the philosophy that bad things have to happen in order to “clean out” the stuff that’s getting in our way. We perceive it as bad because it goes against what we want…or it may kill us, or whatever, but there is this larger purpose that ultimately will make things better. And I was thinking of that in relation to how we see the Devil. Biblically, the Devil has evolved a great deal. In the Old Testament, the Devil was originally God’s messenger, and he was there to put obstacles in the path of the faithful in order to test their wills. In the New Testament, the whole story evolved into the single fallen angel—and that’s really the Devil we all know, with the tail and all of that.

So the original idea with The Collector was really this person who was an angel of death and went around picking people off…wiping out the baddies, as it were. And I thought, well that’s pretty grim. So Morgan Pym evolved into this character that was human and had this back-story, and the question was where did he come from and who was he originally. And that’s what became so interesting; to say, well what if you start with that character, but he’s actually very much something else. And, also, how does somebody become that kind of reaper, if you will.

Robert: And of course, Morgan’s original frame of reference began in the Dark Ages, in which society saw good and evil in starkly simple terms, and those who took a vow to serve God and the Church were forbidden to indulge in earthly passions.

Jon: That’s right. Morgan was a monk and only in his early 20s when all of this came about…and he fell in love…and it was romantic love and went against the Church and was blasphemous. So he breaks his vows. So it’s really a romantic story because he fell in love with this woman, Katrina, which is understandable…but my god, now look at him today. Look at this bitter, disappointed reaper 600 years later…and look at how he got from there to here. And that’s one of the principle mysteries that evolves in the first season. When we first meet him in the pilot, he’s still very much the ambivalent reaper of the future, damned, but he’s still in that job. And then things transpire that in that first episode bring him to the point where he can’t stand it anymore, and his true inner nature emerges again finally after all these centuries, and he asks the Devil for permission to try to help people instead.

And of course the Devil thinks that’s just the funniest thing he’s ever heard…and he’s bored because he’s omniscient, so he thinks it’s intriguing because it presents this wild card. And since the Devil wins all the time, he believes he’ll now have the added pleasure of seeing this do-gooder humiliated—which is a reflection of things that happened in the past—and at the same time prove to Morgan that Morgan is deluded…that people aren’t worthy of his efforts to try to do good. The Devil says early on, “I seek only to do good.” Again, he has this kind of Kali Uga philosophy: “I’m just clearing out the monstrousness in these horrible people. That’s my job. God and I, we’re partners, man. I’m doing humanity good.”

And you know, much of the time he’s right. Some of Morgan’s clients are horrible people. Some made deals with him for humanitarian reasons, others were just plain nasty people…and lots were somewhere in the middle—self-centered people who just wanted something or were in some sort of desperate solution and sought a desperate solution. But most importantly, they’re usually people that the audience can identify with.

Robert: Is there a little of Morgan Pym in each of us?

Jon: I think clearly the answer is “yes”. From the beginning, Morgan had a choice: he could be faithful to god, or he could fall in love. And why should someone have to make such a choice? But at that particular time, at that particular point, in his particular circumstance, that was the choice that was laid in front of him. That was his dilemma, and so we always put Morgan in these morally complex, murky contexts where there is no clear, correct answer…just like life.

Robert: In truth, is there a method to the Devil’s madness, or is he merely the fallen angel screwing with people’s lives because he’s bitter and bored?

Jon: There are times in the first season where the Devil will really screw Morgan over on some personal level. And you’d expect the Devil to just grin, and yet he doesn’t. He looks more like a person with a duty that he’s merely executing. We intentionally left those moments in there. Now, is that because there’s some greater purpose that the Devil is aware he’s involved in, or is he now really saddled with caring about Morgan—which he does—which is the ultimate irony? Here’s this person that he’s chosen to torment for so many centuries that in fact he actually has some affection for. It’s characteristic of our writing that everybody has to suffer…nobody gets away clean in our universe, and we wanted that to include the Devil. In other words, everybody has a stake. Somebody who has no feeling has no stake. In some way, the Devil has to suffer too, and the paradox is that we wanted to leave the classic elements of the Devil being the disappointed child who’s prone to tantrums and trying to get God’s attention.

I think what we want people to come away with is the idea that in the Devil’s continual efforts to defeat Morgan, Morgan represents God. I want people to identify with the fact that the world is difficult, and sometimes it’s unclear whether or not good is winning. In that context, does it make a difference whether or not we try to do good? So when Morgan succeeds, he proves to the Devil that perhaps there is something good.

Ali: What’s been impressed upon me over the past four years—because we usually go to Europe for a couple of weeks every year—is the importance of these magnificent 12th to 15th century churches…and getting a sense over and over again of the power of God and the power of evil, and how really straightforward it was for these people back then. The world was full of vicissitudes they couldn’t control, and through the manifestation of these incredible edifices they created these powerful expressions of faith and influence. And Morgan is of that time period where everything was really very black and white. To me, it’s very intriguing that a person goes through all these centuries and is a product of a more straightforward time, but yet must also take in the changes that occur as time goes by.

Robert: The Devil is a character that has been employed to great effect in film and television in the past: Angel Heart, The Devil’s Advocate, and Brimstone are but a few examples that come to mind. In The Collector series bible you describe the Devil as: “Educated, philosophical, witty and evil -- in these ways, the Devil is what we expect, and it makes him a lot of fun as a villain.” Clearly the inherent intelligence, mischievousness and capriciousness of the character do make him a “fun” character for storytellers. How did you approach the Devil to make him different from ways in which we’ve seen before?

Jon: Certainly, at least for us, there is much more to the Devil than what we’re seeing on the surface. His lies are so many and so varied and so covert—as naturally they would be. But he’s not merely a witty guy smoking a cigarette saying, “Ha ha, isn’t this so funny that I’m driving this person into the ground.” In our story he’s engaging Morgan on a philosophical and a religious and a spiritual level to find holes in Morgan’s faith and to point out that doing good is pointless.

Ali: There’s also vulnerability in him, too. He says to Morgan once, “Is it easier when you care about somebody?”

Robert: Which implies that there is an aspect about the human equation that he’s ignorant about…

Ali: Or curious…or that there are emotions and/or vulnerabilities present. There are things there that are not black and white. Because to me, black and white characters across the board are either: a) of mythology; or b) not particularly interesting.

Robert: In the series, a different actor in each episode portrays the Devil. Did this present any unique casting challenges for you, as clearly the Devil would need to maintain certain traits from person to person…and actor to actor?

Ali: It was certainly something we had to do our homework on. For me, I always look for a sharp intelligence and sense of humor. I need to see that the actor has the things that the Devil would need to possess across the ages—the intelligence and the panache, for example. And as you watch it you’ll see that there are certain characters where he/she appears to be a moron, but then you’ll see that under whatever guise he/she takes there is still absolutely that baseline of incredible smarts and comprehension of the universe.

But the Devil can be anyone: We’ve had a cab driver…a breast-feeding mom…a lawyer—you would certainly never notice this individual on the street.

Jon: The Devil will generally reveal what demographic he’s targeting by the particular form he’s chosen.

Robert: Do you think the series offers a pessimistic statement on humanity, reflecting not only the inherent duality of human nature, but also the troubled world in which we live?

Jon: Absolutely. It’s a trick to give people something that’s entertaining and uplifting, but to also say, “Yeah, it’s not your imagination…the world is a complicated and difficult and tough place right now, and it’s easy to feel depressed and overwhelmed.” So we have this guy, Morgan, who’s awash in all this horrible stuff, but every week he tries to do something good.

Ali: I think we both have an aversion to platitudinous ways of dealing with the world. And I think that as many of us grow older we think about a lot of these things. When you look around at what’s happening to the environment and global warming and so forth—as humans we tend to largely ignore these things—you begin to contemplate the world and the perilous things we’re leaving behind for our children.

Robert: Do you find that the sort of genre writing that The Collector entails is more liberating in the sense that it enables you to obliquely comment on the human condition?

Jon: Well, I certainly grew up with that style of storytelling and am attracted to it, definitely. And of course Ali grew up with it from her father’s perspective. There’s ways to do it in each genre, certainly, and do it well.

Ali: Though some genres do definitely lend themselves to it more easily. So I guess the answer is, yes.

Robert: The Collector was shot in Vancouver, and like DaVinci’s Inquest, is also set in Vancouver. Why did you choose to situate the story here, as opposed to a more traditional location like Los Angeles or New York?

Jon: Well, quite simply, we’re based here now, the show is meant to be a Canadian show and we didn’t see the sense in hiding that fact. And after having lived here for three or four years, we appreciate just how beautiful it is here. How many times do you film a shot and say: “Ahhh, we gotta frame out the mountains, cause they don’t have mountains in New York.” So we thought, well, anyone around the world would watch a show set in London. London’s a cool city…it’s interesting. Anybody around the world would watch a show set in Los Angeles…it’s interesting…it’s cool. And we thought, well Vancouver is on the number one list of most livable cities in the world…it’s beautiful…so why don’t we just make a series that takes place here and make Vancouver into one of those “cool” cities. We’ve established that Morgan’s lived in many cities around the world and moves around, so why not? You should be able to watch it and think: “I don’t care if it’s in Vancouver ‘cause it’s a great show and Vancouver, as it turns out, is a beautiful city.”

And the issues Morgan deals with are universal. Competition…wanting to succeed…wanting to have sex…wanting to live forever—are those Canadian issues? Well, in as far as they are a subset of all humanity, of course they are.

Robert: Canada’s film and television industry is fledgling at best. It’s something of an axiom to say that indigenous hour-long dramas are an endangered species in this country. What do you think are the main problems facing television producers in Canada…do you think there’s any kind of near-term fix…and how did this issue affect the development of The Collector?

Ali: Well, we are obviously in a unique position because we were born and bred in LA, but we’ve lived here for five years and it’s inevitable that we’re going to assimilate part of this culture. Nevertheless, whenever an onus is put on a writer to “create” based upon a “Canadian” culture or an “American” culture—or any other “culture,” I wouldn’t necessarily know how to do that. I think it can potentially really strangulate the creative process, although I certainly understand that here in Canada it is a government subsidized entity and therefore this onus is attached to it.

Jon: Although, to be fair, they’ve now eliminated that. Since two years ago, all the Canadian content regulations have been taken off the government funding list.

Ali: Which is therefore a good thing, because for us it has been problematic. My point is that I wouldn’t even begin to know how to write “cultural” content.

Jon: On a purely structural level, clearly what the CRTC did—by lowering the standards of what qualified as Canadian content programming and allowing cooking shows and reality shows and all of that to predominate—had the effect of cutting down on the amount of fictional programming…there’s no question.

Ali: One-hour drama, you mean?

Jon: Yeah, it killed one-hour drama off by about two-thirds, or something like that. I don’t think anyone’s arguing about that. Now, on the other hand, is that bad? Well, ask yourself if that trend is any different than what’s happening in America. The answer is, not really. In a free market the same thing happened—reality shows have taken over and flourished.

So what are the regulations here meant to do? They’re meant to force the networks, who are granted these broadcast licenses, to have some Canadian culture on the dial, otherwise they’d do what they’re inclined to do, which is go to the States, buy shows, bring them here and air them. So I believe on the one hand it’s a question of the moral value of having things that reflect Canadian values, and on the other hand the value of having things that are produced indigenously which maintain an industry here. The industry here had gotten to a point where if it had dropped below a certain level then it would have started to lose infrastructure. And if the infrastructure goes out of business, then you can’t shoot here anymore. So there’s a certain amount of infrastructure that is naturally maintained through these regulations, and the multiplier effect is gigantic. With American productions coming into town, plus co-productions and the like, what comes back vs. what they spend, is huge.

So as difficult as it is to navigate from the inside, it’s necessary here. You must remember that you’re trying to mesh two completely different systems. The system of producing television has to do with seasons, and selling overseas, and markets…and then you have government bureaucracy that has to work according to its own judgments and its own seasons.

Larry [Sugar] has been a genius in getting funding, and Citytv has been exceptionally supportive, but without CTF and Telefilm, The Collector never would have gotten made. But they have their deadlines—which is a once-a-year thing—and they take their applications in February, I believe it is, and they make their announcements as to who gets funding in mid-May. And as a producer, if you miss that once-a-year deadline, you lose a year. And if you film in Vancouver, you’ve got to film when it’s not raining, which means you get your money in May, and have to basically start filming the next day. Well, that’s rather difficult if you don’t have any scripts. So getting all your ducks lined up within the constraints of this system can be very challenging. In the first season, Ali and I had to basically work for free for eight months in order to get scripts ready so that we’d be ready to go if and when we got the money.

Ali: So you can see that on a purely pragmatic level, trying to actually implement your hour-long drama under those sorts of constraints is very difficult.

John: And yet, the people at Chum are unbelievably wonderful. They really want stuff to happen here and they have unusual taste and are really willing to go with things that are unconventional. They have an interest in that…they really want to produce stuff here…and they really want to have things come out of Canada and be Canadian in nature.

Ironically, at the same time, you have government now reversing itself on the Canadian content and adopting the position that if it’s written, directed, produced and acted by Canadians, then…

Ali: …then how ‘bout that, it’s “Canadian.”

John: Exactly. And beyond that, now they want to produce things that people actually watch. “You know that money we lent you? Well, we want it back,” is their attitude now. So they want to see things filmed here that have commercial viability.

So what I’m saying here, in essence, is that it’s not impossible for the government and the networks to work together. And it’s not just a matter of the government shoving Canadian content down the networks’ throats; it is possible for the government and the networks and the producers trying to get their vision onscreen, to work together.

Robert: So simply through a process of osmosis, Canadian “cultural” content will just naturally begin to seep into the stories and the situations.

Jon: Oh, sure. There are references in every episode of The Collector to Canadian people, cities, culture and socio-political situations. The key here is that the stories are not about that—they are very identifiable human stories—but they do take place in Canada and will reflect the artifacts that are innately Canadian, because that’s the way it is here.

Robert: I want to thank both of you for your time and insights today.

Jon: Not at all.

Ali: You’re quite welcome.